Welcome to the Incredible Machine podcast, where we interview incredible people doing incredible things, find out just what makes them incredible, and hopefully learn from that. I'm honored, privileged and so grateful to have the guest on today. Byron McLean is a brother from another mother. So interestingly enough, we've had my brother, my biological brother in here. I've had a brother by law at some stage on the podcast. And then Byron is definitely a brother from another mother and I think the mother will speak about, joined, of course, by co host and business partner, Luke Holden. Thanks, Luke. Awesome. Great to be here, man. Yeah. So, yeah, I'm just excited, really excited about this. And I took Byron through quickly what an incredible machine is. And you know the shorthand I use, that story about when I met Brian Havana and how he changes. He's the type of person that changes the room when he walks into the room. And I got that from you the minute I laid eyes on you. Now, I was just like, it's gonna be okay. Byron's here. Yeah, so it's, yeah, so today we find out, today we find out what Brian Habena and a shaman have in common. Awesome. How cool is that, huh? Yeah. Brian Habana and shaman. I introduce baroness, my shaman, whenever I say his name and that, and I'm so privileged for that. So I also thought of how to back to the start, in the beginning, when I first met Byron and a fight club came up somehow. But in the line in the movie where Edward Norton's character meets, is busy investigating and trying to figure out what's going on, and he bumps into somebody and he says, like, yeah, you gave me this. And the guy shows the scar and he's looking for Tyler Durden and he goes, you're Tyler Durden. You gave me this. And I'm not going to show the combo, but the combo marks are there and from Byron. But I think when I think of Byron, I think, yeah, he gave me this, like my heart, my, there's a lot of it that my head, the way I think, changed significantly when I spent my first ceremonies and retreats with Byron. And I'm just so privileged to have him in the room. So, yeah, we'll get into it, but just to introduce a formal introduction, and I will do a read for this, but. Byron McLean is a traditional doctor and activist. From a young age, he naturalised into the medical field, assisting doctors and nurses in various practices. Through this early exposure, he cultivated a deep nature of the responsibility required to be a healer. At 21, Bahrain began his initiation process at a sacred site in South Africa. Under the guidance of the unikungesthe civilization. Alongside other traditional healers from the first nations of South Africa, Asia, Europe and Americas, he entered a seven year study of indigenous medical technology, developing a deep and lifelong alliances with various indigenous nations and communities. This fundamentally life changing study led him to co facilitating healing ceremonies throughout South Africa. And Doctor Byron McLean is the director of Sun Mood Seed Alliance, Sunmud Seed foundation and the Kushma by global network and indigenous alliances, humanitarians, healers, educators and activists. The organizations bridge the gap between ancient and modern civilizations, filling the missing links in humanity's timeline that have been oppressed due to colonial driven human and environmental rights violations. They also address the immense side effects of colonial and capital driven genocide, creating opportunities in modern civilizations for ethical alliances and businesses, rooting fundamental and positive change for our earth and its inhabitants. Byron guides these organizations with loving dedication to. To the teacher plants, the participants and indigenous nations around the world. You're welcome. Byron. Like I said, just looking at you and having you in my space and this time, energy, intention has just been a blessing and. Yeah, so I just want to. How are you doing today? I'm good, I'm good. Thank you, Jono. Such a privilege to be here. Really. Pleasure to. Yeah, to be here in this space, this beautiful space that you've created and developed and envisioned. Yeah, always. Whatever you say and do. I have so much respect for and timed for. So very honoured to be here and such a pleasure to be doing this with you. Perfect. Thank you, brother. No, it is a privilege and to have you here and to be here and a lot of that I get from you. What question we generally start with, with handing over to guests and incredible machines like yourself is about your journey. So that personal, business, career and family. And the short question is to get to why you like this. How do we get you? How did we get here? Yeah. I mean, it's for me, a lifelong study practice teaching this life as a student, this life as a teacher, this life as a father, as a friend, as a struggle. It's an ongoing journey of life to navigate through and. Yeah. To. Yeah, I'm not sure. No, that is totally right. Yeah. But at a very high level, I want to know. So I've read your bio. By now the listeners have heard that plant medicines and the teachers and how did that come about? How did that enter your existence in the Johannesburg boy? Well, just practically, I mean, I think through my uncle actually, who is a psychologist in Johannesburg. I mean, technically he's not my uncle. He was married to my cousin, his family, and, yeah, respected psychologist and healer in the south african community, kind of international community, as he studied with western doctors and traditional doctors throughout his life. And he actually approached my family and said, listen, your boy needs further assistance in this life. And he took me to study and train and be beside traditional healers, predominantly from South America, but in traditions also from the first nations of Turtle island of North America and indigenous physicians from South Africa and different lineages around the world. I entered into a life changing experience. I was, yeah, growing up, it was a struggle with me in the education systems and the medical systems and kind of political structures. I didn't know why, but there was a deep, deep defiance in me growing up, which had side effects of, yeah, worrying my family, worrying my teachers. Never really. I don't know how many different schools, institutes I've been in and out of. And it was only really when I sat with very strong indigenous communities and their technology of language, of culture, of social cohesions, of medical technologies that I felt really comfortable, that I felt, wow, this is. I felt whole. I knew who I was. I knew where I was going, I knew what to do. For the first time in my life, I knew how to speak, I knew how to walk, I knew how to talk, I knew how to listen, I knew how to care. But prior to that felt like quite a blur. I come from a family of medical practitioners, western, predominantly healers, actually, but in the study of western medicine, and was put on a lot of medications and went to a lot of psychiatrists and psychologists. Growing up resonated definitely with certain teachers and then others I don't, was completely instinctively defiant in many ways. Growing up and parents kind of working nine to five in medical and industry fields, I think having guidance from my brothers or my sisters or schools was very naughty, actually. Growing up not in malicious, but really just defiant in many ways, you know, is to, like, always seek and search deeply. Growing up in any way I could, whether it was riding my bmx across highways in different, like, area codes and, you know, some days to just, you know, not really being present wherever I was, unless there was a sense of nature, of essence, of spirit, I feel I would resonate with even an accounting teacher, depending on if he was teaching you, you know, not just following a curriculum or resonating with certain groups of friends, if I felt there was some real substance there within the friend. Friendship groups growing up were really multifaceted, called ourselves the United nations and hung out always at the basketball courts and this and that. But I mean, it was really, at 20 or 21, I went into quite a radical study in a sacred site in South Africa, in this valley. It's respected as the birthplace of all humanity amongst the Basutu people. They believe. And it's initiated, I think, more sangomas in the country than anywhere else in Maote Sangoma Valley. And it's been a haven for alternative practitioners across South Africa and internationally. Dennis McKenna, Derrick McKenna spent a lot of time there. Some great artists, they used to have great festivals there, but subsequently it became an epicenter for healing. Not alternative practices of healing, but original practices of environment, of sustainability, of medicine. And I went on to basically live there for, I'm sure, between five and seven years, on and off, for at least six, seven, eight months a year. I was in service. Silent solitude to that space, to medicine, to my teachers at the time. And I was lucky. I had the support of my family. I didn't have kids at the time. I didn't have a normal nine to five at the time. This was my university. And I went into a deep, radical study for years. Thank you for sharing that. I think one of the things I've heard you say and I picked up was this. Your background family wise, like direct family, mother and father, the medical practitioners, western. And we celebrate in western. I know that the iq being high. So those people with high iqs, those doctors, we want them to have high iqs so they can fix us in that way. There is sometimes a deficit in EQ with those particular people. People say how the doctor's bedside manner is in comparison to, like, how great they are, a surgeon, a doctor, whatever that is. And what I picked up is as soon as you got exposed to anything with a bit of heart, like the EQ, the emotional part of it. So the indigenous people balance that probably way better than capitalism is really pushed. And we see this in artificial intelligence, how they are monetizing IQ and doing that and where's. So that's the western way of it. Would that be right? That you resonate even your United nations, your friends, you found when there was something motivational, it was an empty, it was an EQ level. You were missing that. Yeah, completely. I mean, this. You can tie that into what I have kind of come to learn from my teachers or whatever is working through me. Is this reevaluating what we see as medicine, as education, as intellect, as achievement, as wealth, as IQ? I think we've had many generations of intellectual advancements, technological advancements, but at what cost? You know, that's been, you can tie that into brutalization, colonizations, genocides, massacres for technological advancements, industrial advancements, you know, civilized advancements. And yeah, I think there's many, many questions that have come with that. And in the heart, it doesn't always feel, feel right. So, you know, when go back to indigenous wisdom or traditional knowledge systems, it is generally led from the heart and millennia of experiential study, growth and understanding through trial and error what works and what doesn't within the environment, within a society, within a nation or civilization, and definitely resonated with the red people. This represents the heart of humanity. This is the first nations of north, central South America. They're known as the red people. So you have the yellow, the black, the white and the red of humanity. The yellow represents spirit, the white represents the mind, the black represents the body, and the red represents the heart. So if you study with these people, if you just spend time around them, your heart just explodes open. It's like starving for something true, for something real, for something ancient in that way. And for me and many other people around the world who are relying on this, as this activation, this remembrance from these people who also have had Visions and duties and instructions to share that knowledge with the world, it's ancient knowledge. You can go back to yoga, you can go back to herbalism. Even european indigenous knowledge systems are being activated, remembered and has been lost. It's a global thing, you know, and it's really inspires that intergenerational vision. And working from a place of the heart, you know, you have what you have already. This is abundance. We have wealth, we have intellect, we have abundance, we have achievement already in it, you know, in our DNA, within our family, within the environment, how do we balance those things so that both absolute, recognized, respected, understood, relied upon civilizations can find this harmony. And so, yeah, and that's the idea with these organizations is to really put from the fundamental starting point foundations in the right place, really listen to NGO's need to help the communities that are struggling, and it should be the other way around. Many of these communities who are struggling as western civilization actually need help from that knowledge of sustainability, of humanity, of medicine, of long term vision, activating that perception. It's one of the ideas of Sunnin seed and the various organizations that we're trying to practically find a voice for. It's hard to interpret spirit in a practical, daily, nine to five business way, but it's deep in its ethics and. It'S deep in its vision to translate it. So Luke and I review Luke and I review campaigns and marketing. We go with these three concepts, say we call them areas, and one is IQ, the other is EQ. And the final one that we looked at is AQ. So the adaptability questions, you would have heard of that quote misattributed to Darwin, but I think it's a management or anyway, it's not the strongest or the fittest or the smartest that survives the most adaptable change. And what I'm hearing you say is that you use the word balance specifically, and it sounds like the focus on IQ has been way too heavy. And it's not. It's popularized and it's promoted as like the be all and end all. And that leads us in a certain direction where we colonize and we do these things. And without, there's a way to explore without and or balance it in a way where it would be better. Like the overall wisdom and is, like you said, the european. I didn't of known that that's being exposed now. Is that something that AQ, something that you're familiar with at all in your thinking, or is it not in that. Term, but absolutely it is. It is. I think intellectual advancement sparks for an understanding of personal preservation. Home. I. It's a lot about I. And kind of shifting into the we into the collective and kind of cultivating or fostering a nature of, you know, okay, if you really. If I'm really smart, if I'm trying to, it would be to preserve and bring about achievement or success as a species, as a collective species. I mean, these things of classic systems and segregations that have developed over the generations, I understand there's immense complexities, human nature, primal behavior into consideration. But as a healer and as a doctor, seeing patients over the years, thousands of patients from all walks of life, especially in the civilizations that are seen to be first or what is it? First class? First world. Yeah, first world places. Not to mention Canada, Switzerland, Europe, Americas. Some of the hardest cases in clients and patients and participants in my workshops or consultations are some of the biggest struggles are coming from those nations. The biggest side effects, long term psychological issues, deep, deep autoimmune issues, nervous system issues that have developed over generations. This is a clear indication that they are issues. Yeah, maybe just going back to that point is. Yeah, I lost it. No, that's fine. So the point I think you're getting to and what I'm picking up from you is that the heart's missing in those places. They might be first nation first. Not first nation, first world countries, but because the. The heart hasn't been priority, it's not been in balance. And that imbalance creates those deficits and neurological. And it's not just psychology. It sounds like a physiological disease. And that is occurring because too much of. So I think we can agree that too much of anything is a bad thing or can be a bad thing. And even moderation needs to be checked. Yes, but it sounds like you seeing the worst of the worst in those countries. Yeah, I mean, yeah. Thank you, Jonah, for bringing me back to that. But yeah, I mean, you see it on the ground. You know, you can contemplate politics and deep philosophy, but what I'm seeing in patients is illnesses. There's struggles, there's traumas, is deep intergenerational issues that have manifested over generations. How do we address those issues? What is the solution to them? We cannot just carry on business as usual, especially from myself, especially indigenous communities who are seeing it in the environment, seeing what's happening in humanity. I mean, yeah, you know, tragic. Tragic, truly, you know, traumatic for everyone involved, especially the people on the ground going through the wars that are happening now, the side effects of the systems and whatever technological, colonial advancements, you know, and the powers that be throughout that. I mean, yeah, I think globally there's a deep, deep awakening happening instinctively and a need for traditional indigenous knowledge systems. Whether it's meditation, whether it's yoga, whether it's homeopathy or naturopathy or organic. These feels like organic or free range. I mean, it wasn't even a thing. Are we paying extra for organic and alternative medication? Whatever the case is, and this is. Yeah, and it's completely fascinating what's happening, but you know, it's deeply tragic also. And I feel we all need to do something about this. Just because maybe your family wasn't directly involved in the slave trade or colonization. We can trace our bloodlines back. If you're not living in five to 7000 year old indigenous community, unbroken, you can basically, we all have a role to play in that and we all benefit from capitalism or democracy. So at the same time, I think we all have responsibility to address these issues. And I think that's where the key to a lot of the healing lies is in finding ethical, deep systemic, generational ethical direction in the way we do business, in the way we do education, medical politics, really taking out the profit driven first and do not consider going into any direction unless it's people, planet profits together. I think that's what we are ready for and that's what we are begging for. And that's what we're starving for. And I think that's where a lot of the solutions exist. Talking politics. Yeah, well, lead with the heart, I guess I'm getting for that. Yes, yes, yes, yes. And then teach that in education. How do you teach that in education system? You know, how do you teach that? You put child in nature. Initiation, guidance from elders, you know, this thing of, yes, my child, be who you want to be, be free, you know, at the same time, no, there's serious wisdom that needs to be transferred by the elders to the children cannot go and trust the whatever respect a european or Cambridge education system. But there's deep, deep links missing there for how we need to raise children and what we believe. What I believe, and I know a lot of the people I work with believe, is to have a kind of just or peaceful, powerful society. It's missing links. There's missing links in our timeline. Oppression, oppression through colonization, oppression through the genocides and massacres of indigenous knowledge systems, you know, thousands of years old, of experiential study into plants, into human nature, was annihilated and oppressed and then started 100, 200 year old medical system, whereas we had knowledge of thousands of years old, which is being activated slowly again. And even there, there's questionable areas and thought patterns from the majority of people saying, oh, it's this and that. You know, what? These things may be because you've been institutionalized into generations of education systems, of hierarchical systems, some of the most advanced civilizations, scientifically advanced civilizations thousands of years old, are seen as third world communities, savages. What's happened in North America? Biggest genocide humanity has ever seen. Over 120,000,001st nations, Indians killed through various premeditated genocides, deep knowledge of the land, deep knowledge of medicine, deep vision, you know, I mean, telepathic abilities, connection to nature, 1ft in the spirit world, 1ft in the real world, that wasn't seen as a superhuman being, that was normal in every indigenous community. Some of the conditions we see today, bipolaric, schizophrenic, epileptic, leading to depression, leading to high levels of anxiety, depression. Those children who are being labeled with those conditions, which are not conditions, would be taken in indigenous civilizations and be initiated immediately as a healer or a chief or a counsel or an advisor. You have high levels of sensitivity, you have high levels of intuition. And now we medicate it. We oppress that. We put them into, I mean, the suicide rates, the depression rates, the children being born these days, the levels of advanced wisdom, intellect, sensitivity. Intuition is incredible. And what do we do? You know, must go work. A nine to five must go work in this, for that system to be achieving, to be intellectual, so there must be a new way, and it won't be achieved in my lifetime, not even my grandchildren's lifetime, but that intergenerational vision must, I believe, start to be cultivated again collectively, somehow. And myself and many other people are actively doing the best we can to try be a part of something, be a little piece in the puzzle. But, yeah, I mean, that's where I believe success lies, in actually business and even profits. Buy a big business, you speak to the hearts of humanity. You're starving for that, actually. I guarantee you'll make more profits if you align deeply and ethically, not on the surface, but from the grassroots, systemically, in organizations. If you purely profit, I would stay away from you. That's amazing. Luke, have you ever partake? Have you ever been to plant a medicine ceremony or anything like that? You know, I haven't. I grew up in a very traditional christian religious household. And yeah, it was, I think those practices were frowned upon. Yeah, it's an interesting world. I've always, always had an interest in alternative ways of viewing and living life. So just thanks for that. So just on, because it is, it's an interesting. And what gets even more interesting, thank you for your passion, brother. I love it always. But the definitions, I think, and you talk about the education and that, and I think I get very. I like to be as precise as possible as I can be, and I need assistance with that, clearly. And I always appreciate your corrections when I stray on this or anyone. I try to be open to it. The definitions, when I met Byron, it's just before COVID and I went to my first ceremony, and we had learnings before that. And the weekend in Joburg facilitated Carl Jung shadow work done before ceremony with ayahuasca or nixie, pa. And I was very interested to see the language being used and changing from what you talked about. There is the language. This is not a drug. These are not drugs. These are medicines. Yeah. This is not a trip you going on here. It's a journey. When you and I've tried to explain this to people, but when you vomit, it's not vomiting, you're purging. And like we've said before, you don't know until you go. And when you purge, correct, like the way I have experienced it, and I think it's close to being correct, maybe not the right word, but when you purge in a ceremony, it's not just the ones and zeros that come out there like the matter. There's deep emotions and lineage and. Yeah, that you are ridding yourself of, you getting out into the open and that, at least that's how I understand it with that language, that education. But what do you think of the. This we could spend a lot of time on, but like three, if that you want to do three words or three parts that would be defined. Like, you would like to be defined so the audience understands, like, and they can step into it. You know, I think first and foremost, you are going into a medical procedure, an operation, actually, if you commit to going onto a medicine retreat journey procedure, it's a deep commitment and responsibility to yourself, to humanity. You know, you prepare your body physically in dietary preparations ten days before, seven days before. No salt, no sugar, no meat. You prepare mentally by how you engage with yourself, your thoughts, where you engage. You're not going to be partying. Any substances being used, any medication that you've been on needs to be declared and spoken to the facilitators about formally. So you're going into a very profound medical procedure. Yeah. And I mean, yeah. Western sciences for ten years discovered and agreed that we carry trauma in our DNA. We do carry physical trauma in our DNA for over generations. There's no western medicine or pill that you can take to heal that. We're finding indigenous knowledge systems, traditional knowledge systems, ways to balance, extract, isolate, heal from the issues that we carry intergenerationally. That's why so many people are resonating with it. And thank God for that. It's accessible, which also leads to many other issues. Appropriation, profiting, misconduct. You don't want to go to, you don't want to have heart surgery and have a stent put in by a person who hasn't got a medical degree as a cardio surgeon. And the same with us. If you have not studied properly for like five to seven years, if you have not initiated properly, you should not be administering these medicines. And if you're not ethically aligned, you should not be administering these medicines. If you're not taking directorship from the indigenous nations who oversee protected these medicines for millennia, you should not be administering these medicines. You know, you can do it because it's much bigger, it's a political, it's a medical, it's an educational, it's protection of the elders, it's protection of the youth, it's protection of intergenerational vision. It's not just, you know, celebration or social retreat. This is deep medical procedure and there's integration afterwards. There's healing time afterwards. Love it. Thank you. I think I would just in my experience note that I have this in line with the medicines that this view and I want to be a person that never wishes anyone ill. Like, I want to wish them more consciousness. If I can wish you anything. If im able to wish you anything more consciousness. Thank you brother. And what I realized, like even to the people that I don't connect with, we're at odds or that I want to be the person that wishes them all consciousness because I've had it thrust upon me. And without a facilitator, I don't know how I would have navigated more that and seen that light and understood and come back and go like I don't know, like. So without the correct facilitator you can lose your mind just as a similar basis. But yeah, I've got some questions from some of your, I would call them students and lifelong friends. And before we get into. And we are going to get into again, it's a. I think it's a perfect campaign in terms of the heart and that we'll get into that a bit afterwards. But yeah, we're talking. So that's about what I understand for the western civilization, IQ, it's easier to track. And that goes. And you talk about segregation, it's just easier to box things in and see. But I've seen over weekends or retreats and that massive changes in myself and the question that was proposed to me by somebody that knows you said, can you, without naming names or anything going to the details, identify tangible changes that you've seen the biggest of, like those tangible changes over a retreat as an example. I mean, there's so many that come to mind. I. Yeah, I mean, yeah, from people who've lost their way, come out of retreats feeling very, very clear, understanding more about themselves. It's not a, you don't come in and take a pull and the work is done. You go through a series navigation and introspection of how your mind works, how your body works, how your spirit is, where you come from, who you are, where you're going. That alone is hugely healing on an energetical level, spiritual level, and on a practical level, stuff like diabetes and arthritis, back pains, headaches from the medicines, the various medicines, flushing out your liver, your kidney, your stomach, physically being deeply beneficial, clearing out the pancreas so it can create its own insulin around diabetes and stuff like that. Practical stuff, you know, indigenous knowledge systems, they have no illness, they say there's no illness we cannot cure. With geographical change, dietary change, medical change, eventually you will. Yeah, you will go through deep healing. But I mean, there's hundreds of examples of deep transformation, lifelong transformation, physically, mentally, spiritually. Yeah. I mean, most people will say it's the most important occasion that's ever happened on par with having children, on par with having their first born or, you know, going through pivotal moments in their life. Everyone from politicians to, you know, people who don't really have access to many physical resources would say, yeah, I'm not sure on exactly one. I could probably take my last retreat as an example. The testimonials are 110% positive. Even if situation doesn't seem positive for the person, they go through a hard retreat, hard time, come out feeling drained, come out feeling confused. The weeks following profound change, gratitude coming, you know, shifts in jobs, shifts in family, shifts in personal life. I mean, it's huge. Even if it's negative, it's still positive and vice versa. Yeah, no, I think. Thanks for that. I think from my experience, I don't know if this is going to help tie into something, but I've sat in these ceremonies with you and there's a sharing that happens in that container where it's a safe space and people share things. And I'm just. I've always been humbled and absolutely like, the things that I hear that people are going through and their traumas and they, right then and there, they, in this lifetime, they don't know of the ones consciously that you speak of. And then it gets to me and I'm just like, that's why you here, John? And I'm like, I'm sad. It's like, okay, cool. It's like. And there's no judgment in that. It's like, it just seems like to. Well, this guy just went through this and John's just sad. But it's a deepness, like. And depression is not. So you will know this, but depression is not because of. It's in spite of often enough. And it's like something. I think that heart that I've got from your ceremonies has definitely made me more whole and tangibly. And I've seen in the WhatsApp groups where you keep contact with the people that you share the experience with, and they do. They'll be like, I quit my job and I know they're on Monday and then they. But maybe it was the poison that was the thing that was poisoning them. And we have that rule explained to us and don't make any life changing alterations in the next 30 days or so, try to keep it, but. And learn. But, yeah, I think to sort of segue into more of you, clearly, it seems like you were destined for this and there was a part of you that was missing and it was spoken to. Were there any other. One of the questions that were given to me were, were there any other alternates to you? Was it like, go be this big corporate style, be a doctor, be a western doctor? Yeah, I mean, I've tried. I've tried actually to work in a kind of corporate setting, and I tried to study western medicine and just immediately had clear blockages. And, I mean, even if I were to persevere through, I believe, yeah, unless it really resonates with my heart these days, unless it has multifaceted, functional, deep ethics, I won't go into it unless there's a profound reason, and especially as an activist, unless it's benefiting the communities I work with, I learn from, I have partnerships with formal, informal and solidarity with. Unless it's benefiting them directly, I would not go into it. So, yeah, I mean, I love sports, I love traveling, I love socializing even. But when it comes down to it, I know what I am and what I resonate, what I feel comfortable with, which is being in retreat, which is being in deep service. I could be in a retreat of 75 people. I can be in a retreat of three or five people, one person. The heart is there, that service is there, that learning is there from these indigenous technologies is the most important thing. So the follow up question on that was, as a shaman and your line, your future, we spoke off the air the other day and you said you feel like you're about halfway through this journey, and I hope that it's not. I hope you're just still starting. And I mean, this, where we are, we can utilize other technologies where necessary or where applicable. But in your journey now, as a shaman, where does it lead you? Do you know that future? Is it still in this country and traveling as a baseline forever? Have you thought? Yeah, you know, I'm not sure, actually. First of all, that word, shaman, yeah, it's important word to understand you. Look at our GP, they are a shaman, a GP, a western doctor is a shaman. It means you're in service to the children, to the elderly, and your duty is to help people heal. That is the duty. I think it's mongolia or Siberia. It's the word sharma. It could be kurandero, it could be page, it could be doctor, it could be physician. And for me, I think I just started really actually contemplating like, wow. I think I'm like halfway through my life and this deep ambition and kind of blunt taking on new centers, building new communities, being a part of opening up new projects and organizations, registering NGO's here, there. Trying to put it under one umbrella and be clear about a long term vision is, yeah, it's reaching a new point now where I think I'm going into more of a teacher role actually in the next year or two, more of a guidance role. I'm very happy to carry on chopping wood and carrying water for the next 510 years, but really I feel it naturalizing into more teacher role and handing over some of my responsibilities to students, to other teachers of mine and just letting the organization's healing centers access to these medicines in the right way grow naturally, you know, and more focused on setting up foundations, the fundamental things. But yeah, sorry, the word shaman is. No, I need definitions. I don't want, I don't want people to have this. Oh, another shaman or whatever. This is a person of service. If you are truly that, you're a doctor, you're a person of service. It doesn't matter where you are, you know, you can try to do a holiday in Italy. If you're a true doctor, your work never stops, you know, either tending to the land, to the waters, to the, you know, individuals you'll find yourself bumping into constantly. You know, I look at my mother, she tries to have a day off. There's no days off. She's always either resuscitating, giving birth to helping, assisting, whether it's on airplanes, this and that. The same with me, you know, always learning and being of service to the space, to people. And prior to this, we talked about the Hollowbone and I don't want to touch on that. So. And maybe just in practice, if there are practical, any practical advice. So my experience with in ceremony, and I had mentioned this, that there was the last ceremony in particular, I noticed channeling was happening and people talk about this. You channel your inner Michael Jordan and make this jump. Channel it. Like I don't know if you channel while Luke, if you channel while you in situation, any great photographers or any creatives that you aspire to. But the channeling has been that thing to me that I understood as that. Like it's just imagine you are and that. But I've experienced channeling when somebody is invited into the room but they're not there. And I've heard, I've heard bane through your voice. It was there I know he was there, and I've heard others, and I felt them, obviously feeling feelings, actually, interestingly enough, more and easier for me to feel them in the room before I've heard them now. And that channeling, I knew that those people were there. It wasn't your voice that I heard. It was other people's voice. Is there anything? Can you elaborate on that? Yeah, I mean, that's an endless study, and it's a whole textbook of words to share around that. But I think anyone can channel. But for me, it's a process of like years of cleaning, cleaning your body, cleaning your spirit, of being able to focus, being able to meditate. It's years of connecting to your angels, your ancestors, your guides, your higher self, whatever you may call it, a place in your brain which is immensely focused and clear. You know, I think anyone can channel, you know, especially if you're going into the medical technology from particular civilizations which songs, prayers actually have been channeled, or particular tools on an Operation table have been channeled. Especially when you go into those old archetypes, through Inca, through Maya or Mecca, Mazatec, Huni, Queen, Ashaninka, Kayapu, Shingu civilizations, north american civilizations, Lakota, Navajo, Mohawk, Nishinabe communities, Algonquin communities. These are very old communities of being a normal thing, of channeling. Traditional african, south African, Nyangas, prophets, sangombas. That technology of channeling is a normal thing. Many children are born healers, sangumas. This is duty to channel. It means that you're connected to your ancestors. You work on behalf of spirit. You've got 1ft in the spirit world, 1ft in the real world, and you will channel a lot, whether it's through messages, through healing, through prayers, through bringing people together. I see you as channeling. When you get on a roll and something's activated in your heart and you've experienced something through your line of experience and trauma and life and love. You can channel a message for someone that comes from a high place, your ancestral place, space of God, a space of mother, a space of father. And I think anyone can channel. But for me, it takes years to do it properly and to do it in a good way and to learn how to do that. Some kids can do it immediately and they're more open. Yeah, yeah. We're gonna go over to the case study now that we picked Luke, and then we'll talk about that. And then I want to get into the quotes. Do you want to? Yeah, I actually haven't even. I don't know if I've seen this. Yeah. So we're gonna play it again anyway so that we can. And then we, and then we'll switch the audio back to us. You've obviously seen this. He's seen it. But, yeah, I brushed over. Just keep that running. You're familiar with this campaign. Alison. Kala Kaepernick refused to stand during the national anthem, taking a knee to protest police brutality. The athlete, who's been unsigned since 2017, returned into the spotlight in September. The nightmare revealed Colin Kaepernick as the face of its latest marketing campaign. Believe in something, even if it means sacrificing everything. I'm shocked. Is Nike taking a risk? And I lie back. Tonight, the first game of the new season, and Nike is running an ad featuring Colin Kaepernick. If people say your dreams are crazy, if they laugh at what you think you can do good, stay that way. I will tell you, every family, if not most of this country was talking about this last night at their dinner table. Angry fans have been calling for a boycott. It is everything that Nike has stood for. Be the best. Do it. Just do it. I want to applaud Nike. Speak up. We're right behind you. These are not dark times. These are awakening times. I will buy more nikes now. I will always support Nike. I stand for anybody that believe in change. To me, this is all right place. Right time, right on time. This thing is bigger than just the United States, and I think it resonates throughout the world. Nike stock reached an all time high last Friday. So don't ask if your dreams are crazy. Crazy enough. That was cool. Very inspiring. Yeah. So we'll put that case study in the show notes. But it's the Narc dream crazy campaign, and it totally resonates, I think, with a lot of what's been said. So we look at this again, three categories, IQ, EQ, and AQ, and definite resonance in the AQ. Fundamentally, this principle we've created, which is think differently or crazy, be strong. So one of the reasons why this ad would fall under that principle, or this campaign would fall under that principle is because, like a brand, traditionally, there's no, no business being political. Like, you don't get into politics. You just sell stuff and make us look good and that sort of stuff. And Nike here have just gone, no, if you don't stand for something, you fall for everything. So it was definitely, it's disruptive because they just, they're not scared of it. They're doing it. And at the beginning, you'll see stocks dropped, people, the enemies really came out and showed themselves. And then it was, it changed. It just changed because it gathered momentum like that. And actually in that case study, you can see there they're stuck. So even that capitalism changed for them because they led with the heart, like you said. And that's the AQ part of it. So you need to adapt like the stuff that is always done. Brands mustn't speak about politics. They mustn't take political stance. They do and they don't often throughout history. And this one is definitely, like it says on the right side of it, the history, the EQ part of it. So they utilize in their campaign, you can see user generated content, the celebrities that Jim Carrey putting his shoes on the desk and say, I just bought some more nikes, and people getting behind it and utilizing that to bring that to the forefront to show their I message. So that's a user generated principle that we very much promote. And then it would tie into always on, which is like the campaign goes over time and you constantly updating, you just don't put that ad up once it evolves. And as it evolves, there's more to the story and it carries on going. But I don't know if you have any thoughts on it, if you. I mean, I love it. It's completely inspiring and, you know, I think it's a catalyst for what the people are thinking and feeling over years and just waiting for something like that to jump on. And all respect to Colin for initiating that wave of standing for something and inspiring that change and speaking on behalf of the people. Absolutely. And even building on that, do we get that into systems, policy structures, systemic, intergenerational, so that in the next few generations we would have to have situations where it leads to taking a stand, there's a collective consensus, and we can actually move forward as a species and do something greater? Yeah, and I think looking to the past is actually going forward, actually. There's so much wealth of knowledge. How many people do you know these days that anyway would be able to survive out in many circumstances? And, you know, anyway, we're so reliant on many things. But yeah, I think from a grassroots level, you know, even with communities who've never seen a pair of nikes, to me, these are the most advanced civilizations, most advanced communities. How do we get people like that in positions of power, actually in politics, making decisions around education, medicine, what is good for humanity in the long run, the incentive of wealth and success and achievement is very much ten generations ahead. The people we look up to. For guiding us around success and achievement guarantee. It's not that many generations ahead, and even if it is, it doesn't consider all that needs to be encompassed. So. Yeah, I mean, incredible campaign, but I have many things to say to build on that. Yeah. Imagine. I love that. I love seeing a brand use their budget, like, to put that out there. Yes. Brands are political in ways that they'll boycott and like, and they won't support and that sort of stuff. This is at the forefront. Like, it's really much in my mind like that. Luke, I don't know if you've got anything to add there on that. No, I just. I. Maybe it's the eternal cynic in me, but it's. I find it ironic and it's neither a good or a bad thing, that maybe. Yeah. Capitalism, you know, Nike's, Nike's, it's capitalist venture. You know, it's. There's so many stories behind them, but standing up for a people group, so it's really cool. Yeah, yeah. It's a bit of a mindbean when you think of it from that perspective. You know, this massive brand that's done many things and maybe atrocious and maybe good, but they've capitalized on that situation and being completely adaptable. Yeah. Which is a good thing. Yeah. Which is. Yes. Yeah, yeah. No problem. Capitalize on it. But stand for something beyond the right side of history, like they say. Yeah. So it does remind me, we're gonna get into the quote now, but, like, exactly what you're saying. So wear those shoes made and stuff like that. But there's something about that. Be the change that if you want to stand, if you want something to happen, like you want more love, be more loving. If you want more honesty, be more honest. And maybe that's just an inkling. And then they can change all the deep rooted systems of how their products are produced. And we won't have time to discuss that, but that be the change, and I love that. And getting into the quote that I want to discuss with you in our final moments here, that is so the quote that we chose for this, and we spoke about this. Washington, a society that grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they shall never sit. And what I've learned from Byron is that I think of that as, like, my grandpa. So it's like a two generation. But Byron introduced me to this concept of seven. Seven generations and how the indigenous people work with that number. They do things now that will only come to fruition. Those trees in seven generations, every generation doing that. Can you elaborate on that? Yeah, I mean, you definitely cannot trace it back to one person who coined that. It's even a civilization, I think, collectively. Polynesian, aboriginal First nations of South Africa and Africa in general. The Americas work in alignment with the vision of seven generations ahead with what's being done, how things are built, how things are cultivated, how we speak, how we engage with each other, how we raise our children. The roots are so deep, the vision is so far that you always know who you are and where you're going. And I really think it's so vital for us to start opening conversations around that, how that practically looks. It's not easy, you know, if you start to foster that nature, no one's going to see it, no one's going to. Not going to be on a platform. I say I work for seven generations ahead. It needs to be a collective nature that is fostered in people caring for brothers and sisters caring. It's going to be generations of that caring. You may go through 80 years of life, not get anything back from that care. That's the dedication it takes actually, to really try and embody that nature of working with 7th generation. I guarantee those people will be more wealthy, more at peace, more internally healthy than many people striving for in a temporary fixes of wealth or achievement or success. So, yeah, I mean, for me, ideally, in an ideal world, you would have indigenous leaders in partnership with current leaders in America. You should have the Lakota chiefs, Navajo chiefs, not just one person who represents a whole nation of custodians of that land of the Americas, Canada, Central America, South America, in partnership with current structures and governments to try work on solutions. It's not say, oh, abolish western systems, incredible advancements and things that we all rely upon, but there's serious, serious, serious, fundamental foundational issues there built on blood and brutalisation, which you're seeing immense side effects from now. And the healers in the indigenous communities that have been brutalized, who still want to share the knowledge, who still have hope for humanity, who still live with deep joy. You know, I think that's the solution. In South Africa, Koi, the Komani Sen, greek word, it's not even if it recognizes official languages, the first nations in the hundreds of thousands of years old civilizations, you know, not even recognized as the first people of South Africa. There's huge medicine there, there's huge wisdom there, there's huge brutalization there. If we go through life and don't acknowledge that stuff, I think we, you know, we're going to be even more in a mess than what we are. I think it's deep, deep, deep reparations, acknowledgement. Not just. Yeah. I mean, who am I to speak? But yeah. What's happened in this country through the apartheid, what's still happening now in Palestine and Israel with the apartheid that's happening there, their colonial mentality, propriation mentality, you know, what many of western civilizations have been built on. We're seeing the immense side effects of generations later, and we all have to take responsibility for that. You can't trace it back to five, seven generations of what, my grandfather. No, I didn't do that. It's in your DNA. It's your responsibility. It's all of our responsibility. And indigenous communities responsibility as a species to try. To try put fundamental, intergenerational, systemic solutions in place so we mitigate these issues that are all happening and. Yeah, anyway, dreams. Dreams. It is the ideal, as you say, just in closing. Well, bonus question before we close, but should our political leaders, our leaders in business, and that's the people you speak to already, the YPO, the EO, those entrepreneurs, because they can have, you get them thinking with their hearts, and they have a massive effect on more people. And should our political leaders in this country and abroad I be in ceremony? I think it should be mandatory. Should be initiated. It should be mandatory. Initiation. Yeah. They have to go through an initiation process of being responsible so that you can be a leader for the people, for the environment, for spirit, for the planet, and essentially be in a position of responsibility. Just because you went to so and so university, just because you earn a certain amount of money does not put you in a position. Position to be a leader or a guide. Yeah, fundamentally, of course. And absolutely. And I urge everyone from the YPO to big businesses to political leaders, to even grassroots movements, that success lies in this issue. Guarantee speak to you. It will make more profits. If you address this colonial issue. Guarantee you people are waking up. You need to speak to the hearts of the people. I guarantee people will support your business. If you have deep ethics and intergenerational vision within, study with indigenous healers, study with traditional medical technologies. Rethink what it is to be wealthy intellectual. Rethink what it is to be a leader. Also this whole masculine feminine issues going on. Patriarchy also needs to take a step back and see what power and intellect and advancement lies in mothers. That wisdom of the feminine and the deep wisdom of the masculine. What it means to be that all take a step back and rethink yeah. Last, I think that made me think of that Marcus Aurelius had an assistant, and maybe it was an assistant or guard that he had with him, somebody more indigenous. But that person's one job. I'm sure if you heard they had one job and all they had to do is every time Marcus Aurelius spoke in front of crowd, massive crowds, as he finished, that person came up to him and said, just remember, you're only a man. And that. Just remember, like, you're just a man. And that's it. And there's so much more than you. We wish to be connected to everything and attached to nothing as much as possible. Completely, completely, completely. I mean, even here, just. Yeah, brother, it's been an absolute privilege having you and I don't know if there's anything you'd like to close with. Sure. Just. Yeah. Huge thanks to everyone. Indigenous communities I work with, anybody facilitating retreats, ceremonies, doing this work of service activists, NGO's out there. Yeah, politicians, everybody doing good work, ethical work. They are the first nations of the world, helping to protect the planet and take the wisdom, the people, the plants, yeah. Everyone doing the good work. Sensitive people, intuitive people. To my kids, mothers of my children. Thank you, brother. Thank you, brother. Amazing, Luke. Awesome. That's great. Thank you. Thank you for your time. A good way to wrap it up. Yeah. Thanks, guys. We'll have show notes on any links to Sun Moonseed. Yeah. Case study, case study. Let us know in the comments what you think. Please do give us some feedback. Awesome.